Game Of Thrones

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eobversion1
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:23 am

eobversion1 wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:00 pm
I'm hoping by the end of this season we have a definitive answer to what path lies ahead for the remaining 6 episodes. Jon and Dany continuing to fight both Cersei and the Whitewalkers would kind of be a little indecisive for the sake of these 7 episodes.
Last night's episode didn't exactly allay my fears.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by GooberBM » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:43 am

You have to remember though, the entire length of the show/book/whatever the characters have treated the things Beyond The Wall as only figments of one's imagination. Which is incredibly short sighted knowing the things they all have seen and know to be true. And yet they've held that dogma anyway.

The whole conflict is that nobody can keep their eyes on the real prize, and that's what's gonna get people killed
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:12 pm

Which was, at least I think anyway, the entire purpose behind the scene of Sam trying to convince the Maesters to take action and them doing little more than sitting on their hands while they waited for a raven to take a letter to and from Winterfell for further clarification. Some of the Maesters outright dismissed Sam entirely while the rest gave him skepticism at best, despite being a witness of the White Walkers and wights and having killed one of the former.

I'm also thinking that the twist plotline for Dany to offer to work with Cersei to defeat the Night King is... Lacking. It's definitely not GRRM's writing. Definitely seems like more of a Dan and Dave thing, and it comes off as baffling at best. I mean, everyone on both sides knows that Dany's latest attack put the knockout blow to Cersei within sight. We see this mostly on the Lannister side as Jaime is certain they can't win, Bronn is already planning his exit before Dany shows up and even Cersei is admitting that she has to beat Dany off the battlefield "Like father would" (obviously hinting at the Red Wedding). Dany knows that Cersei is not cut off from supplies and allies and that all that's left to her is whatever of her exhausted and apathetic soldiers that weren't slaughtered by Drogon and the Dothraki. Yet, rather than put an end to this fight and assume the throne and THEN aid Jon, she's offering a temporary truce? To what benefit? Sure, Cersei probably has more control over the families and armies around Casterly Rock and King's Landing, but all the other major houses are either dead, (Tyrell's, Tully's, Frey's, Tarly's, Martell's and Baratheon's) loyal to Jon (the North and the Vale), or likely staying in neutral (what we can assume the powers of Dorne will be doing now with all the Martell's dead). All that's left on the field besides a nearly destroyed Lannister force are the Greyjoy's under Euron's rule. Speaking of, where the hell is Euron and Asha? Where did Theon go once he got back to Dragonstone? He hasn't been seen in Dany's counsel meetings or asking her for help in rescuing Asha, who, you know, supplied the fleet that brought Dany's armies to Westeros in the first place. You would think returning that favour would be high on Dany's list of things to do. But I digress. Whatever Cersei has left to offer towards a campaign against the Walkers is not worth the risk that would come with trusting her to honour a truce. Cersei, like Littlefinger, would be queen of the ashes if it meant she got to be queen at all. She's more likely to help the Walkers defeat Dany and Jon than she is to help them.

I don't know, I feel like Dany's character is all over the place this season anyway, in terms of her moral compass and her strategical intellect alike. When she met with Asha and Theon last season, Asha asked for the Iron Islands, one of the Seven Kingdoms, to be independent of Dany and was granted that, simply for, as she herself said, asking for it. She then said the others were free to ask as well. Then she shows up on Dragonstone and does everything short of physically bending Jon's knee herself in order to get him to pledge fealty. I mean, she's already down to six kingdoms (which she stopped acknowledging about five minutes after that event) and now she's complaining about Jon doing the same thing Asha did. If not for her conveniently having A) Dragons and B) inadvertently landing on the biggest mine of dragonglass in the kingdoms when she came to Westeros, Jon would have no reason to even so much as acknowledge her existence. If she had shown up on the stepstones with only the Dothraki and the Unsullied and Jon had no walkers to deal with, he could have fortified Moat Cailin, sat back and let her and Cersei sort their shit out on their own while he ruled as a king from Winterfell.

Then there's the matter of her always saying "I will not be like my father" and "I am not here to murder" and then turning around and murdering people with fire, which was exactly what her father liked to do. Sure, one can argue that Randyll and Dickon made their choices to not bend the knee to her, but here she is saying "rebel against me (a foreign rebel in many eyes to begin with) and I'll kill you". That doesn't inspire loyalty, it inspires fear, and it goes directly against everything she has been trying to establish of her reputation up to this point. Even when Greyworm was taking Casterly Rock, Tyrion was stating how Cersei's soldiers fight for her out of fear and the Unsullied fight out of loyalty and Dany turns around two episodes later and tells the beaten and exhausted men of the kingdoms she wants to rule over that she is not going to be like Cersei... By being exactly like Cersei. I can't make heads or tails of what Dave and Dan are trying to do here, but it just feels so off the mark that I'm genuinely perplexed as to how this is all going to unfold.

I anticipate a HUGE episode next week.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:01 pm

I agree with many of your sentiments here Nucks, while in earlier seasons I felt that decisions associated with characters were sluggish now some of them feel very hollow for the sake of moving chess pieces around or to reverse engineer a predetermined outcome. You need only look to Sansa to see a clear lack of subtlety in how the creators want to move her character around. It feels like what she's doing is collateral damage.

That's what makes shows like Mad Men, The Sopranos and The Wire very high watermarks for me as television shows. They were never about getting characters from point A to point B for the sake of it, characters didn't move unless it made sense for them to move, the plot was only one dimension of those shows, many other creative decisions were done for depth or texture. They were novels for TV. They understood that character development wasn't about personality transplants, it was about how the show's characters have been impacted by how the world has changed around them while trying to keep a grip on who they are as people.

I wish Dave and Dan could come up with a well directed epic battle that could top what those shows gave me but alas.

Which is why I imagine that there's nothing the show could do that would top the books Nucks.

P.S. Imagine if Cersei is stabbed in the belly, that would be an lol moment.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:57 pm

Since we are beyond the books now, Dave and Dan have a basic plot of how GRRM plans to do it and the fleshing out, so to speak, is all on them. Dan and Dave are fine writers, but they are no GRRM. George calls himself a gardener writer, he lets his idea grow organically and let them go where they may. Dave and Dan are clearly of the architect style, where everything is structured out ahead of time. The problem with architectural style when you write such massive fantasy stories is that by the end, they rarely, if ever, resemble what you envisioned from the start.

I know that from first hand experience. What I envisioned for As Fierce as Steel and the result are two entirely different books and it's having a rippling effect on book two and so forth, to the point where the ending I originally drafted is more so just a suggestion than a place I definitely want to end the books. To that end, I started in the architect style, but found myself switching to the gardener style.

In Dave and Dan's case, they built the skeleton of this grand plot out of George's source material and wrote towards that end, but with the episodes they have left and the plot they drafted, they seem to have written themselves into a corner. My guess is that they wanted the War of the Queens to drag on longer, but they just don't have the time to do so. That makes Dany's 180 degree swerve from wanting the Iron Throne to wanting to help Jon, seem to be their way of writing out of that corner. I'm not saying it's a good way out, but it got the job done.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by GooberBM » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:14 pm

The common thread between both your critiques is the difference between the shows Evan noted and Game of Thrones is that the former knew what the road map was and they made the decisions from there, while with GOT they know the endpoints but not the route there. (Thanks GRRM!)

Point being, there are plenty of shows that are good, or even exceptional, for one or two seasons (Shows like 24 or Homeland or a personal favorite of mine Everwood) that knew what the game plan for a season or two would be but for whatever reason (they didn't expect to last so long or creative changes or whatnot) they can't sustain the quality.

A show like The Wire worked because David Simon knew the start point, the end point, and laid out the entire show in his mind or maybe even on paper before he ever started. He had the complete vision already. I don't know what the process for Mad Men or Breaking Bad was but it was closer to that than say a 24, which had a great first season but the longer it dragged on they were just throwing stuff at the wall because FOX wasn't gonna cancel it.

All of that is to say that all of this, every last bit of it, is GRRM's fault for not just writing his goddamn books. This is all your fault!
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:55 am

ATTN: Nucks I think you'll appreciate this.

It's OK to click on the spoiler tag here if you're up to date.

https://www.reddit.com/r/television/com ... _tabletop/
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by Mafwanix » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:20 pm

GooberBM wrote:I don't know what the process for Mad Men or Breaking Bad was
I think I saw an interview with Vince Gilligan where he said the whole story arc of Breaking Bad was plotted out.

I don't have HBO but I've been able to keep up with the Season 7 story from HBO's website. They put up a pretty thorough synopsis after each new episode airs.

Knowing the story won't really diminish my enjoying the DVDs when they come out.

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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 pm

Yep, it's hard to argue with that, EoB. Things certainly feel much more rushed.

Also, episode 6 has been leaked thanks to HBO Spain. (They inexplicably put the episode on their streaming site for an hour this morning and that was all it took) Caution for those who are trying to avoid spoilers, as they are everywhere now. Especially the comment sections of the most popular Game of Thrones Facebook pages.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:10 pm

S8 begins filming in October so it likely won't air until about the same time next year. Looks like HBO want Westworld to occupy the spring slot where it used to be permanently.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:55 pm

As usual, the penultimate episode did not disappoint in terms of excitement.

The finale is going to be downright insane.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:29 am

This is probably the first time that the show has made me more angry than entertained, for a number of reasons.

- From the moment Jon Snow hatched the plan to capture on of the army of the dead it was a dumb idea. What's more is that the clusterfuck he caused only gives the upper hand to Cersei and drives a bigger wedge between him and Sansa vis-a-vis who has better judgment as a leader. Jon is very good at making very dumb decisions feel noble and heroic in the moment. It was a plan hatched on the fly from an episode previous. They could have brought more dragonglass, Ravens and used Bran but they chose not to. Dany should have told Cersei to sent people beyond the wall to get proof for herself, or else she'd burn her where she stood, even if she was bluffing it would have convinced her after the events of Episode 4.

https://twitter.com/davidlsims/status/8 ... 5124247553

- They spared the budget quite a bit for this episode, many shots like in The Revenant almost sent chills into your bones, although not as well shot as The Revenant it was more than competent on that front. I just wish an episode as handsomely mounted as this wasn't so frustrating.

- As for the loss of a Dragon it was inevitable, Rhaegal will be Jon's Dragon so he'll get more of a chance to improve his skills in battle. In regards to Drogon well he's the Lebron James of Dragons having one of him is like having two dragons. If you watch all the Dragon scenes in succession he's the point man, the general, the MVP, the only one with the level of ruthlessness that can give Dany any kind of advantage. He's a natural born warrior. I hope he gives the Night King a cremating so vicious his ancestors will feel the heat.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by GooberBM » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:39 am

And in other, more personally hitting news, GODDAMN IT STARK GIRLS, get your shit straight!

It was way too easy for Littlefinger to sew discord between the girls. No matter how much they've grown up those two just can't get on the same page. I'm not exactly totally sure the play on sending Brienne away. I want to hope that it's Sansa being on Littlefinger's page, and taking her off the board so she can't be put up against Arya, but the Starks are really dumb sometimes, so it might just be opening herself up to getting her face snatched.

Speaking of, I love you Arya but you DO NOT THREATEN TO MURDER YOUR SISTER AND STEAL HER FACE! Ned Stark would not be amused by that behavior.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:47 am

I'm hoping that with both Stark girls being keenly aware of Littlefinger's skulking abilities that at least one of them are trying to lull him into thinking that there is discord between them. Otherwise, this plotline is dumb. But then again, this is the same season that has seen plenty of otherwise intelligent characters be dumbed down for either plot convenience or writer errors.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by GooberBM » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:22 pm

I agree with you on character actions being convenient to plot, but for the Stark girls this is very much in character (whether as a ploy or not). Either they are stuck in their old relationship and can't get out of their own way, or one (or both) of them is smart enough to play to expectations to stay a step ahead of Littlefinger.

Most likely Sansa. Because Arya always was bad at showing her ass when it comes to Sansa
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:14 pm

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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by El Canuck » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:51 pm

I have to agree, Goobs. My money is on Sansa being the aware one too, especially when you consider just how much more acquainted Sansa is with Littlefinger. She, above everyone else, should know exactly who and what Littlefinger is.

It looks like the mountain is flipped, indicating that the Children of the Forest created the Night King on the opposite side of it.
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:17 pm

https://twitter.com/EvanJOBrien/status/ ... 1836531715

Plenty of clips from last Sunday's episode set to "My Heart Will Go On" from Titanic floating around online. Interesting.

Jon's definitely finding out about his heritage on Sunday and is going to command Rhaegal. I just hope he doesn't find out before he jumps into bed with his aunt.

Strange that Dany seems to be on treading down a similar path to her father and Cersei given her cruel burning of the Tarlys and her likely upcoming incestuous relationship.

https://twitter.com/EvanJOBrien/status/ ... 3259965448
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by GooberBM » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:17 pm

The incest part is just what the Targs (not even trying to spell that name) do. Keeping that bloodline pure...ish
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Re: Game Of Thrones

Post by eobversion1 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Like I remarked on Twitter, instead of pulling an Oldboy this time you can see the incest coming from beyond the horizon. They could have Jon learn who he is but knowing this show they will likely go with the incest.
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